News that makes us laugh, cry, or both

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:44 am

Umm, there's no sidewalks in most of the fucking state.

That's one of those laughable lawsuits - there's no sidewalks (well, someone has ten feet of one) within a mile of my house. And I'm in basically a suburb, but with narrow mountain roads.

Geez.

Of course, this won't actually get far, unless there's more detail to the case that we don't know about, like the coffee case that we hear about all the time.

-Crissa

angelfromanotherpin · Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:20 pm

Probably not news to anyone anymore, but still...

Israel attacks humanitarian ships in international waters.
Turkey says fuck that.
Turkey talks to NATO allies regarding fucking that.
Israel continues to hold hundreds of captives from the flotilla, claims that humanitarian missions are 'an attack on Israel's sovereignity.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:26 pm

Pretty sure Israel has lost the plot on this one - not sure why they decided to go into hijacked airliner mode on a job that required tear gas and water cannons, even assuming you cared at all.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:00 pm

It's the Israeli Navy. The branch that nearly sank a ship belonging to Israel's only ally.

That being said, there's already a tape showing the "peaceful activists" did attack first. And the Israelis were using paintguns.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/wo ... cnn?hpt=T1

Given that it happened on the Turkish ship and the ship was supposedly cleared of weapons by the Turkish authorities, it's honestly looking more like the Turkish Islamic crazies who are now running the government are trying to create an excuse to break its ties to Israel.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:13 pm

The violence by the activists is pretty abhorrent. These are not followers of Gandhi or MLK Jr. But the violence is not fatal to anyone and it is in response to a dawn commando raid by armed soldiers. They are engaging in self-defense. More to the point: they are civilians confronting one of the best militaries in the world. They killed no soldiers; their weapons were improvised; the death toll in the fight is now deemed to be up to 19 - all civilians.

It staggers me to read defenses of what the Israelis have done. They attacked a civilian flotilla in international waters breaking no law. When they met fierce if asymmetric resistance, they opened fire. And we are now being asked to regard the Israelis as the victims.

Link to full piece.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:27 pm

I'm a big fan of Andy Sullivan, but he's not exactly a military analyst. And his "It's a bunch of civilians against the best military in the world!" kinda flies in the face of the fact that several Israeli soldiers were in fact quite badly wounded, and that video does show that they were attacking Israeli soldiers as soon as they landed.

By contrast, the official story sent out by Al Jazeera from the boat is that the activists surrendered, the Israelis started massacring them - including shooting people in their beds - and they decided to fight back before they were wiped out. The video completely contradicts this. The fight started moments after the Israelis fast-roped unto the deck.

Moreover the video does in fact show the Israelis were using fucking paint guns during their initial landings. If the Israelis were going for overwhelming firepower as opposed to a measured response, they wouldn't be firing fucking paint guns. They'd be firing heavy weapons from the helo.

So no, I'm really going with the Turkish Islamic Crazies plot. And the Israelis Navy was fucking stupid enough to fall for it.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:43 pm

Zinegata, seriously, fuck you. The civilians were in international waters. They had committed no crimes. And Israel's actual published justification for sending in the troops is that giving food to hungry people is an assault on Israel.

Keeping in mind that Israel is currently holding all the non-Israeli witnesses as prisoners and refusing to let any journalists talk to them.

Glenn Greenwald wrote:In other words, not only is Israel -- which seized ships in international waters and killed civilians -- the Real Victim, but the Real Criminals are those on the ship. But doesn't the victim of a crime usually want media coverage of what the criminal did? How odd for the victim in this case to take such extreme steps to ensure that the world cannot hear from the witnesses.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:57 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:They had committed no crimes. And Israel's actual published justification for sending in the troops is that giving food to hungry people is an assault on Israel.

Nope, this is another lie by the activists.

If you want to give the people of Gaza food, you go through fucking Ashdod - the terminal where the Israelis can inspect cargos and make sure that you're actually sending the Palestinians rice instead of rocket components.

However, as Obama's own ambassador to the UN noted - the activist were fucking idiots to not go through the official route and intentionally chose to try and break the Gaza blockade.

You're not gonna help anyone by trying to break a fucking military blockade with metal sticks, slingshots, and stolen pistols. You're just gonna piss that military off and get a lot of people killed.

Also, I notice that you weren't able to come up with a response to the fact that the activists did, in fact, attack first. And the Israelis did, in fact, not start firing heavy-calibre rounds into them and used paint guns.

Keeping in mind that Israel is currently holding all the non-Israeli witnesses as prisoners and refusing to let any journalists talk to them.

Given that the Al Jazeera reporter on the ships reported that the Israelis were massacring unresisting people - which clearly isn't the case - I'm kinda doubting releasing those people would lead to anything except more blatant lies against Israel... which people like you happily ignore anyway.

Free Palestine and all... but let's face it. Those activists were probably under the pay of Hamas and this is all a PR plot that everyone is getting suckered into.

They're all liars, and neither side deserve sympathy.

But hey, beating up on Israel is popular nowadays. Enjoy being a sucker then.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:13 pm

Zinegata wrote:which people like you happily ignore anyway.

I'm curious as to what you think you know about me. Or if you're just resorting to the weakest ad hominem I've ever seen.

And would it kill you to source any of your assertions in this thread, or just embarrass and discredit you?

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:19 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Zinegata wrote:which people like you happily ignore anyway.
I'm curious as to what you think you know about me. Or if you're just resorting to the weakest ad hominem I've ever seen.

And would it kill you to source any of your assertions in this thread, or just embarrass and discredit you?

You did actually just ignore the fact that activist's accounts - which is that they didn't attack first, did not resist, and they surrendered - was a lie.

And rather than addressing it, you said "fuck you" to me.

It's not an ad hominem attack. It's what you actually fucking did. You happily ignored the fact the activists lied and happily unleashed "fuck you" broadsides my way.

Also, regarding source, from the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_clash

(The activist's account)

Organizers of the convoy have denied the account of Israeli military. Arafat Shoukri, of the Free Gaza Movement (FGM), one the co-organizers of the flotilla convey, said those on board one ship had called them by telephone to say that Israeli helicopters had arrived.[59] "Then we started to hear screams, shouting, shooting everywhere," he said. "We heard some of them shouting 'We are raising the white flag, stop shooting at us'".[59] He dismissed Israel's claims of activists having weapons on board as "cheap propaganda".[59]

According to Mavi Marmara activists and personnel, IDF commandos surrounded the ship and boarded from helicopters and from the sea. They claimed that after boarding the IDF jammed communications and started shooting with live ammunition and tear gas even though they raised a white flag. They claim that those on board defended themselves with wooden sticks and other items they could find on ship. They also claimed no one on board carried any weapons.

Yeah. They claimed to have surrendered, and were then shot at.

Ignoring the fact that the video does in fact show they attacked the Israeli troops the moment they landed. Some surrender.

And that the CNN video clearly shows the Israeli troops were initially armed with paint guns. So how exactly can they be shooting at the guys in the boats?

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:12 pm

Ok, news from the CNN live report (not on the site yet, and I'm sleepy)

1. Some of the activists have been released, notably some German MPs.

The Germans are claiming that tear gas and flash bangs were thrown prior to the boarding (not captured on-camera), and it apparently drove some of the crew crazy and led them to attack the Israelis.

2. According the the Israeli Spokesman Mark Regev the activists apparently aren't being "detained", but the activists are engaging in civil disobedience and are refusing to be processed for deportation.

I have no fucking idea who's pulling bullshit on this particular aspect of the issue.

3. Egypt just opened up another port and land route via El-Arish and the Gaza crossing. Which Regev just claimed as an alternate route to Ashdod.

A Hammer · Post by **A Hammer** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:54 pm

Pictured: Nasty contraband found aboard the Mavi Mamara. Note in particular the tools, probably intended for use as weapons of mosque construction, and the lengths of chain, for chaining up IDF commandos.

(Not pictured: actual contraband)

Zinegata wrote: If you want to give the people of Gaza food, you go through fucking Ashdod

You sure should! Assuming you're limiting yourself to approved commodities, of course. Here are some things that you might have trouble getting past inspection:

sage, cardamom, cumin, coriander, ginger, jam, halva, vinegar, nutmeg, chocolate, fruit preserves, seeds and nuts, biscuits and sweets, potato chips, gas for soft drinks, dried fruit, fresh meat, plaster, tar, wood for construction, cement, iron, glucose, industrial salt, plastic/glass/metal containers, industrial margarine, tarpaulin, sheets for huts, fabric (for clothing), flavor and smell enhancers, fishing rods, various fishing nets, buoys, ropes for fishing, nylon nets for greenhouses, hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries, spare parts for tractors, dairies for cowsheds, irrigation pipe systems, ropes to tie greenhouses planters for saplings, heaters for chicken farms, musical instruments, size A4 paper, writing implements, notebooks, newspapers, toys, razors, sewing machines and spare parts, heaters, horses, donkeys, goats, cattle, chicks

P.S. The ships were boarded in international waters. The fact that Israeli troops claim not to have started shooting lethal rounds right away does not absolve them from what is basically an act of war.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:24 pm

Please, it is an act of piracy. The repercussions for a country on the Mediterranean performing piracy are supposed to be fairly severe.

-Username17

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:27 pm

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

A Hammer · Post by **A Hammer** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:02 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Please, it is an act of piracy. The repercussions for a country on the Mediterranean performing piracy are supposed to be fairly severe.

-Username17

Nah, you don't count as a pirate if you're backed by your own state. So this is 'just' an intrusion by armed forces into the sovereign territory of another nation.

Psychic Robot wrote:67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

lol

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:25 pm

Most of that 'contraband' looks like 'parts of a boat'.

I'm wondering if Zinegata knows when the last Palestinian building permit was issued by they authorities holding a gun, or how much cropland was destroyed/created in Palestinian hands last year?

Either Palestine is a separate country - and by which they don't need or want Israeli customs inspectors - or they aren't a separate country and we're talking about a very large population of people who aren't allowed to have steak knives, let alone homes and farms.

-Crissa

angelfromanotherpin · Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:11 pm

And the hits keep coming...

Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament, was on board the Miva Marmara, the ship that was the scene of the confrontation between activists and Israeli soldiers. The Israeli Navy fired on the ships five minutes before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from helicopters, Zoabi said during a news conference in Nazareth, Israel.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:05 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Please, it is an act of piracy. The repercussions for a country on the Mediterranean performing piracy are supposed to be fairly severe.

-Username17

Actually, the fact it occured in international waters only makes it ambiguous. If it occured in Gazan waters, people would just claim that it occured in "Palestinian territorial waters", which would make it an act of war, not piracy.

So it doesn't really fucking matter where it happened. Nine people died because everyone acted like a fucking idiot.

Crissa->

Like I said. Free Palestine and all, but they were fucking idiots for not going through Ashdod if you want to bring in food. Even Obama's own ambassador called the activist's idiocy on this.

So fuck you for being an idiot.

Hammer->

Why do you think I said bring in rice?

You could also have complained to Egypt, since they totally closed the other route into Gaza before the incident.

Or Obama. Because they haven't been complaining about the blockade.

Fact is, there's an existing aid route. The flotilla was designed to ignore the aid route, and to flout the blockade. If you're gonna send guys with sticks against an armed military, people will fucking die and aid will not get through.

angel->

Which contradicts some German accounts, who said there was no firing, although they were shocked tear gas and stun grenades were used some minutes prior to the boarding. Other German MPs said shooting started after they landed.

So really, it seems to me that even the activists don't really know what exactly actually fucking happened. Except that they should claim to be peaceful people.

Maybe many of them didn't realize that some of their own guys really did start attacking? Most of the dead are apparently Turks from the Hamas-allied organization.

Again, I'm inclined to believe this was all a Turkish plot by the Islamic crazies. Because their new government has been itching for an excuse to break its long ties with Israel.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:48 pm

Zinegata wrote:So it doesn't really fucking matter where it happened. Nine people died because everyone acted like a fucking idiot.

No, the Israelis acted like fucking idiots. The convoy possibly scored an even more massive PR coup that they would have if they had been successful in delivering humanitarian aid.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:00 am

Just because Israel doesn't outright starve the Palestinians to death doesn't mean they're not oppressing them.

Heck, they're oppressing them more than any amount of Jim Crow and we're getting to the point of apartheid, just with actual tanks doing the killing.

I'm an idiot for suggesting that Israel is out of bounds for blockading its neighbor?

-Crissa

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:56 am

Carthaz->

Without a doubt the Israelis botched this one hugely. Like I said, the Israeli Navy is the branch of their armed forces that nearly sank a ship of their closest ally. There's a reason why one of their subs goes AWOL and nukes Tel Aviv in Salvation War

.

However, charging guys with guns using sticks counts as fucking idiocy in my book too. Because getting yourself killed IS fucking idiocy.

Although again, if it turns out all the attackers were Turks, and they were all from that Hamas-allied group (who were aiming to be martyred as opposed to killed), then I'm more inclined to believe that the Israelis were indeed the only idiots in this episode and this whole thing was one clever play by Turkey.

Crissa->

Nobody's denying that the Palestinians are being oppressed. Two-state solution is good. Blockade is bad for ordinary Palestinians. Free Palestine and all.

But don't act as though people weren't supporting the blockade. Egypt closed their side of the border. Obama's UN ambassador said the convoy should have gone through Ashdod - which is tacit approval for the blockade.

Except for one ship - the flotilla acted like it was supposed to. An exercise in civil disobedience. They sail towards Gaza, flouting the blockade. The Israelis use non-lethal force to stop them. They don't resist and surrender. All good and kosher. Activists get the limelight and say "Look at what the blockade is doing!"

But here's the thing. One ship had people who fought back. And it's not as though the Israelis started firing machine guns at the activists. They were using paint guns.

The one ship that resisted was from Turkey.

Most of the dead were apparently Turks, and the rest of the activists (including the interviewed Germans) were just bystanders who didn't resist.

It was also the ship carrying Turks who were linked to Hamas extremists.

It was also supposedly cleared by Turkish authorities as not carrying weapons... even though it did turn out they had skads of improvised weapons.

And this is all from a Turkey is now under an Islamic-crazy leaning leader, overturning decades of Turkish secular rule.

I'm not a big believer in coincidences. Especially since this came just weeks after Turkey had welcomed a delegation from Iran.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:25 am

Zinegata wrote:It was also supposedly cleared by Turkish authorities as not carrying weapons... even though it did turn out they had skads of improvised weapons.

A pipe wrench is not a weapon. A kitchen knife is not a weapon. Those are things that are needed to maintain the machinery and people on a boat.

Can they be used to hurt and kill people? Sure, so can a leg of lamb. So can a rope.

Grenades and automatic firearms are weapons. The people who had those caused fatalities, and the people who didn't have them didn't cause fatalities.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:44 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Zinegata wrote:It was also supposedly cleared by Turkish authorities as not carrying weapons... even though it did turn out they had skads of improvised weapons.
A pipe wrench is not a weapon. A kitchen knife is not a weapon. Those are things that are needed to maintain the machinery and people on a boat.

And box cutters are used to open boxes and they're technically not weapons, but they're not exactly allowed on airplanes anymore are they?

I said improvised weapons. Yet the Turkish government was quick to claim "No weapons at all! We inspected the ship!"

Again, that's really, really fishy in my book.

Grenades and automatic firearms are weapons. The people who had those caused fatalities, and the people who didn't have them didn't cause fatalities.

First of all, again, the Israelis didn't use grenades. They used flashbangs and tear gas. And so far none of the videos display the use of automatic weapons - from the reports so far it seems the fatalities were inflicted using the last-resort pistols. The heaviest weapon shown on any of the videos is either a shotgun or a grenade launcher (from the Al Jazeera video) - which is often used for riot purposes anyway for launching tear gas rounds (the former), and non-lethal rounds (the latter)

So again, enough with the stupid lies about the Israelis breaking out the heavy weapons. So far, the evidence shows they didn't.

Now, if you wanna complain about the legalities of the raid, that's fine. It's a legal quagmire ranging from a legitimate to illegitimate act of war. If you wanna complain about the blockade, that's fine too. Just don't ignore the fact both Egypt and the Obama administration openly supported it.

But claiming that the Israelis just broke out the heavy stuff and started shooting people is not supported by the evidence. That's pretty much a lie by the activist side.

It was essentially a fight between riot gear plus pistols vs an armed mob with improvised weapons. If the Israelis started using heavy weapons, we wouldn't have just 9 people dead.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:29 am

Can this be moved to another thread please? This is likely to turn into a really long discussion ranging from the validity of the Israeli state to comparisons to Ireland to who knows the fuck what, all interspersed with insults, ignoring each others points, and all over drama.

I just don't give enough of a fuck about this to have to read over this shit all over again while attempting to read random amusing news stories. I'd rather watch a tortoise fucking a shoe, or read about amazing science project ideas, or worry about unsubstantiated rumours about scientists writing up papers about high-frequency sound as torture. Can we please not mess up another long running thread with arguments?

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:33 am

Zinegata wrote:I said improvised weapons. Yet the Turkish government was quick to claim "No weapons at all! We inspected the ship!"

Oh come on. Anything can be an improvised weapon. How the hell are you going to keep a ship afloat without a wrench?